A thoughtproduct in the life of...

bwv549 · 2016-06-10T00:17:21+00:00

I read through your honor code file, and it was interesting the kinds of comments and notations in there.

Have you had a chance to see any other HC files? Any sense how deep a typical HC file goes?

BroBrotherton · 2016-06-10T00:28:31+00:00

Why don't BYU students have the right to convert to another religion? I know the standard answer but isn't there a freedom of religion argument to be made? I feel like the supreme court would be on my side.

N620JH · 2016-06-10T00:45:49+00:00

Any updates to the ABA's review of the law school's accreditation? And if not, any other updates that you hinted at in the lead up to this AMA that you care to share at this time?

Slc10000 · 2016-06-10T00:18:22+00:00

Will BYU be able to continue its discrimination against the LGBT community in employment?

JerryManilow · 2016-06-10T00:51:56+00:00

Do you envision pressure from other schools via athletic event boycotts:

Likely to happen?
Likely to have any influence (if they do happen?)

TotesMessenger · 2016-06-10T01:24:33+00:00

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

[/r/byu] AMA with attorney, triple-BYU-alum, & FreeBYU director Brad Levin, who's determined to establish religious and academic freedom at CES universities. (x-post r/exmormon)

^{If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads.} ^(Info ^/ ^Contact)

ExmoWithAttitude · 2016-06-10T01:25:06+00:00

Thanks for the AMA Brad. Sorry for breaking balls. This place is a echo chamber sometimes. We aren't going to agree on much, but I feel like some headway was made on your side and mine. Cheers you cougar-fetishing SOB!

[–]mistahdoom 6 points 13 days ago

Haha, you slay me. :) Sure thing

[–]hiking1950Ya can't touch that... 12 points 13 days ago*

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[–]mistahdoom 10 points 13 days ago

Yes, but it's very small. Accreditors are conservative, and rarely pull accreditation.

The more likely outcomes include: - Sanctions - Public censure - Probation - Loss of reputation

I think that last bullet is perhaps the most effective. Many LDS stakeholders care a great deal about the reputation of institutions such as BYU and BYU Law, and care to be ranked highly in the eyes of the world. Being embarrassed and questioned for their discriminatory practices wounds their reputation, and also damages their effectiveness in certain areas (such as being perceived as a leader in promoting religious freedom internationally).

Turning the knobs on accreditation challenges in a public way gives the internal voices who already favor liberalization more ammo to win the internal battle to allow greater religious and academic freedom at BYU. Since the decision makers are, ultimately, the members of the BYU Board, helping "our" side of that internal battle is a good move.

Of course, there is that slim chance that an accreditor out there will grow a pair and hold one of the BYU programs accountable (say, the American Pyschological Association or the Council on Social Work Education)- and if that happens, then that gives a big boost to the chances of our requested reform being implemented.

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[–]mistahdoom 7 points 13 days ago

We haven't observed any negative impacts from students requesting their files, but it's possible that merely requesting your file could be the basis for them opening a file on and investigating you. Given that risk it probably makes sense to forbear until your degree posts (two months after graduation).

We'd love it if you would submit an anonymous profile. Capturing the stories of impacted students helps us prove that this is a problem worth fixing.

Also, volunteer with us! We have several promising initiatives that lack only willing hands. We have current students doing FreeBYU work - we take precautions to protect their involvement from resulting in negative impact (though there's always some risk). I could connect you to an accreditation challenge or our boycott initiative, among others. Let me know if you want to work!

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[–]mistahdoom 9 points 13 days ago

Certainly there's no shortage of universities in the US.

Your other questions are similar to a question that comes up quite often in discussions of FreeBYU regarding the justice of expelling students for disaffiliating, since that consequence is noted in the honor code. One question I like to answer with is this: Agreements always have at least two parties. How ethical is it for the party with disproportionate bargaining power to require the other party to purportedly forfeit a human right? What obligations do all institutions have relative to protecting a person's Article 18 right to change their religious affiliation?

In addition to the normal ethical obligations all people and organizations share to protect human rights, the LDS Church specifically has additional obligations based on its explicit commitments to the human right of religious freedom. I argue that these obligations are better shouldered through FreeBYU's proposed reform, than they are by the status quo.

[–]ExmoWithAttitude 2 points 13 days ago*

[–]mistahdoom 7 points 13 days ago

I agree with you on the adhesion contract conclusion, though I would say that for at least some students, their university options are slim: at least from the perspective of their high school brains. This is especially true for applicants from families where the parents offer financial help only if the student attends BYU, and where all their family members attended BYU.

I also hear your opinion about the response being more applicable if BYU were a public utility or a business. I think you have a point. However, it's also relevant that BYU is an accredited university, rather than a non-accredited university- which means from the perspective of many (including, notably, employers), BYU is engaged in the business of awarding secular degrees that are universally recognized (which makes it more like a business and less like a seminary). BYU is certainly free to become a seminary or a non-accredited institution, but that is not the choice it has made.

Dr. Juergensmeyer, in boycotting the BYU religious freedom conference, argued: "A university that calls itself a university is a public institution. It is not a Sunday school. Regardless of who sponsors it, the university is a public trust. It provides necessary skills to accredit individuals for jobs in the public arena, and just as important, it provides that social space that I referred to above—the arena for the free expression of ideas—that is important for an educated society and for an individual’s own intellectual growth." I think Juergensmeyer's argument is crucial to the analysis.

Last, I acknowledge the counter-argument regarding the Church's rights, and I do affirm the right of church autonomy (that Churches should be free to run their own affairs). There is tension there, but I would point out that Article 18 specifically attaches to humans: not institutions. I would also point out that the balance of LDS statements run in favor of the right of religious conscience (i.e. of humans), rather that the freedom of religious institutions to discriminate.

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[–]mistahdoom 7 points 13 days ago

Transcripts are a good idea- I know I got mine when I was at risk of expulsion. However, I think that piece of advice is a bit over-weighted: I'm only aware of one case where it would actually have been handy, since usually students and alumni have either not needed or not struggled to obtain transcripts. Plus, FERPA is a powerful tool for accessing your educational records that BYU has a track record of complying with.

I think the overlooked aspect is timing. The sigh of relief should not occur at graduation or diploma receipt; it should occur when your degree posts. This is an administrative action that usually takes place about two months post-graduation (for me it happened in early June after my April graduation). Until then, BYU can still refuse to post based on honor code violations. Your program's registrar can confirm the posting of your degree.

One other piece of advice is, perhaps unsurprisingly, to volunteer with FreeBYU! This policy can be reformed with a smart strategy and good execution (we have both, though haven't succeeded yet!). Current students are too vulnerable to fight for their rights, and faithful LDS folks generally don't care much about impacted exmo and LGBT students, so it falls to folks like you and me to carry their torch, once we no longer have as much to lose.

If we're successful, our reform will help thousands of students in future years- but if we're not, those same students will continue under the same vulnerabilities you and I did at BYU. That fact still drives me, five years after graduation, to fight hard for them.

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[–]mistahdoom 6 points 13 days ago

I think it's hard for me to say what the reasons are behind the church's decision to run the schools and enforce the disaffiliation policy- I'd mostly just be speculating.

I think your proposed line of reasoning has some logic to it though- by stigmatizing and punishing disaffiliation, you reduce its occurrence and visibility. Under the theory that seeing someone you know and trust disaffiliate makes you more likely to follow suit, there is risk to the tithing streams of those putative peers.

Regarding the disaffiliate herself though, it's probably a losing bet. If her religious conscience has fully changed, it's probably only a matter of time before she disaffiliates and she'll probably just wait until after graduating.

That being said, the literature on emerging adulthood suggests many of the people who leave their childhood religion return to it once they start raising kids. So, it's probably more likely that a disaffiliate will return and pay tithing again, and that their families will as well, if the disaffiliate was treated kindly rather than coldly during her faith transition.

[–]ExmoWithAttitude -6 points 13 days ago

As a BYU former student, I found the culture, faculty, admin and overall student body to be intolerable. So I left.

I never felt like it was my right to be there or that it was someone else's obligation to subsidize my education contrary our agreement and our respective expectations concerning my prospects in the church.

Moreover, there are a finite number of slots available at church schools and a surplus of qualified, faithful applicants; why should the church be obligated to keep and pay for me if there are dozens willing to take my place and abide by agreed upon conditions?

The mission of Free BYU is perhaps the most self-serving and fatuous of any I've come across. A bunch of well off white kids who feel entitled to the patronage of those with whom they disagree. This is not a genuine problem and your cause deserves no serious thought.

You may have left the church behind, but your have retained all the entitled, insular and uncritical faculties of a BYU alumnus.

[–]mistahdoom 8 points 13 days ago*

I hear your perception that FreeBYU's mission is self-serving and fatuous, and advanced by well off entitled white kids, and that this is not a genuine problem.

I would push back on that latter piece a bit. How many stories of impacted students have you read, and how many impacted students have you spoken with? Also, what does qualify as a genuine problem in your standard?

My answers to the first two questions are: hundreds, and dozens. I find their stories quite compelling and the problem genuine; however, I can also see how someone else might not.

Regarding the church being obligated to keep and pay for you- one point I would make is that educational "slots" are not interchangeable. A 3L law student, for instance, cannot simply be substituted for by a fresh applicant waiting outside the door. When expelled, that 3L's slot largely remains empty until the next year.

As an accredited program, the institution also has a legitimate interest in ensuring capable, performing students are able to graduate primarily on the basis of their academic merits- which is an institutionally self-interested argument consistent with our proposed reform.

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[–]mistahdoom 5 points 13 days ago

It looks like we might have some common ground here. It sounds like you think it's unfair for BYU to punish folks that disaffiliate as it relates to their ability to transfer.

We've had some really tough instances relating to graduate students- specifically, those working on a Master's thesis. Since a Master's thesis doesn't transfer, these students who go through a faith change toward the end of their program are in a really tough spot. If they disaffiliate, BYU's decision to expel them could result in the student being back at square one relative to their degree.

The case is similar, I believe, for many other graduate students. As an MPA student for instance, I called around to see how many of my 50 credits I could transfer to another MPA program. The best deal I could find was six credits. Since the receiving institution decides what academic work to accept, some students can end up in a difficult position educationally when BYU expels them. Plus, these students often have to explain their honor code violation to the next school and on professional certifications, and may not always be successful in gaining admission. BYU may not intend those results and can't control the receiving institutions or the ABA rule, but their action expelling the student can contribute to a pretty harsh outcome.

That's part of the reason that we're arguing that these students be allowed to graduate from BYU even when they disaffiliate. You and I might differ on how many disaffiliating students should be be allowed to graduate, but would it be fair to say that you would favor the reform, at least as it relates to graduate students who would otherwise have to start over at square one?

[–]ExmoWithAttitude 3 points 13 days ago*

Yes. I would favor reasonable measures to ameliorate academic and professional harm.

The one populist bone in my body, is really irked by any subsidy of BYU except for maybe the required religion classes. I think the students should have to pay the going rate for private school. I think BYU probably makes the church money in the long run, but it still involves a tranfer of wealth from those who can't afford it to those who can and don't need it. Any BYU student would be competitive for a full ride at a good public school or scholarship at good private schools. This is charity for people who don't need it. I also think BYU spawns a cultural elitism and insularity that is rotting Mormon culture and contributing to its moral and intellectual collapse.

A church full of alumni from the plethora of prominent and diverse unis would be a much better and stronger church notwithstanding the heightened attrition that would result from not being clustered at the BYUs. What we've got now is an expensive, inequitable factory that produces "yes-men" and chucks the defects in the trash. BYU is a disgrace.

[–]mistahdoom 3 points 13 days ago

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I think you make some fair points. I've also been irked by, as you describe it, the transfer of wealth from those who can't afford it to those who can and don't need it. I think there are many students (myself included) who, given their economic prospects, could bear a greater share of the burden of their education costs, which would result in taking some of the load off the shoulders of those who don't see the benefits of those costs.

I should admit though that I lean in favor of the IBT (Income-Based Tuition) schemes that price tuition partly as a factor of the average income realized by people with that major. The philosophy major who pays the same price for a degree as an engineering major is subsidizing the engineering major, who consumes more university resources and goes on to earn more money.

Anyway I digress. I also agree with you regarding the better and stronger church resulting from alumni from prominent and diverse universities. I do like though that BYU is affordable for poor students, though that may be small comfort for those who can't qualify for admission.

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A thoughtproduct in the life of...

Wednesday, June 22, 2016

Hi, I'm Brad Levin- director of FreeBYU, because I REALLY REALLY want religious and academic freedom at CES universities. AMA!

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